How to Get Out of Your Own Way in Business with Sam Laura Brown

⁠This episode is for entrepreneurs who are ready to discover how to overcome perfectionism, escape the all-or-nothing mindset and stop procrastinating so you can be come more productive and build a successful business.

⁠Sam Laura Brown is a perfectionism coach and host of the top-rated podcast, The Perfectionism Project. Sam teaches perfectionists how to follow through with their plans and get out of their own way in their business.

⁠Sam shares so much incredible advice and deeply relatable stories in this episode...I'm so excited for you to listen!

In this episode, you'll learn:

✧ How Sam discovered she was a perfectionist when at first, she thought she had a motivation problem 
✧ How to balance being vulnerable while also still embodying your expertise   
✧What perfectionism really is and how having language around it supports you in overcoming it  
✧How to practice shame resilience  
✧The link between procrastination and processing emotions  
✧The 5 main perfectionist tendencies that show up for entrepreneurs  
✧ Navigating the feeling of entitlement in business  
✧ What to do when your brain keeps telling the story "I should be farther along"  

🔮 Resources:

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Full Episode Transcript:

Hello and welcome to the Magnetically you podcast. I'm your host Madison Surdyke. I am a mindset energy coach here to help you feel your freakin best and manifest a life full of magic miracles and abundance. I know that whatever led you here did not happen by coincidence. So I am so excited and grateful to have you here. So let's let the magic begin. Hi, and welcome back to the Magnetically You podcast. I'm so thrilled for the interview. Today we have Sam Laura Brown, the host of one of my favourite podcasts ever that has helped me so much the perfectionism project, she is still real is so relatable and everything that comes out of her mouth and like damn, can you tell me more, so I'm really, really excited to share her with you guys today. She is a perfectionism coach, Coach, host of the top rated podcast, the perfectionism project, and the founder of perfectionist getting shit done a group coaching programme for perfectionist who are building businesses. Sam teaches perfectionist how to follow through with their plans and get out of their own way in this this. So welcome, Sam, I'm so excited. You're here. Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. Yeah, thank you for being here. So I would love to start by having you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, and what how all of this unfolded to lead you to this amazing, incredible business and impact and podcasts that you have today. Yeah, of course. So as you mentioned, I'm a perfectionism coach, I help perfectionist entrepreneurs get out of their own way in their business. And that has really stemmed from my own journey. When I started my business as a blog in 2013. I did not know that I was a perfectionist. And I found that when I started my business, I just really put the brakes on I was so in my own way about it in the sense that I didn't want to tell anyone about it, first of all, because that's just embarrassing. And who do I think I am that I can actually share something. So it was this shameful secret that I had. And then I was posting blog posts that no one was reading because I hadn't told anyone about it. I wasn't promoting it. But I was writing these blog posts. And then I would edit things that had already been published. And I would spend so much time on Pinterest graphics and all of this busy work because it felt so scary and vulnerable to go all in. And I'm not sure if your listeners will be able to relate to this. But for me, I finally felt like I was doing something that felt so true and authentic to myself, in terms of sharing my personal development journey and the nerdy stuff, I'm truly into that it really felt vulnerable to be sharing that in a way that when I was studying, so I have a lot in the finance degree when I was doing that it didn't bring up my perfectionism as much. So it was definitely still there. But I didn't really identify as being a lawyer or being someone in finance, like that didn't feel like this is who I really am. So it's easier and less embarrassing to fail at something that you don't really want to do. But I really wanted to be in this personal development while particularly. And I've always been someone who has gravitated towards coaching others, and it just felt so scary and vulnerable to do that. So I had all of these perfectionist tendencies. And we can talk about the five main ones that show up for entrepreneurs. But I had them showing up I was so in my own way about it. And I didn't realise I was a perfectionist. And so I was constantly trying to solve for my motivation problem. That's what I thought it was that if I could just stay motivated to pose consistently to put myself out there, then I would be able to be successful. And it wasn't until I got the perfectionism pays thanks to largely Brene Brown and also Carol Dweck that I really was able to figure out what was going on what my thoughts were that were making me get in my own way, and then how to get out of my own way. And yeah, we can dive into all of that there's so much there. But it really has been through my own journey with perfectionism. And as I mentioned, like, I didn't even think of myself as a perfectionist for the first few decades of my life. And it was only when I started my business, it really brought those perfectionist tendencies to the surface in a way that I can no longer avoid dealing with. I cannot resonate more with that loss. Like yeah, having a business has a way of like, Oh here is everything you could possibly ever need to work on and grow through and overcome on a on a very heavy silver platter. I'm just getting so I could not resonate more but yeah, so much I want to get into here. The first is, you know, you talked about how it felt so vulnerable. Raul, and that's something that I, you know, see so powerfully in you and has been so healing for me and listening to your podcast is how open how vulnerable you are, how transparent you are in that you still have your own struggles, and you share those so openly. And like as an outsider, it's so easy to see that it doesn't diminish your value as a coach and as a leader, right, I still, I'm able to relate so much to you with the vulnerability and then also still see you as this really amazing expert. So it's like, how do you balance that that dance of embodying your expertise and being vulnerable and sharing that you're still a human and that you're not perfect? Yeah, great question. I think what's really given me permission to do that is just paying attention to how I most resonate with others. And really noticing half of myself when I listen to podcasts, where they are speaking about themselves and their own experiences, and how they've been navigating now that I love those podcasts and those episodes, where people are really sharing, like, Hey, this is what's really going on, in his what things look like, as I'm trying to figure it out. And when people are presenting in a more polished expert kind of way is like, well, I've got it all figured out. But here's what you should do, when it's that energy, I don't tend to resonate with it, I kind of noticed that I have my guard up in the sense that I might let him really know me. And then like, that kind of thing. But when they're talking in first person about themselves and sharing their journey and saying like, here's what's helped me, I find that I found those people who teach in that way, the most helpful for myself. And so I just focus on doing that myself. And it's really been, like given me permission to do that just by noticing how valuable I find it when others are doing that. And yeah, to just give myself permission to share the things that I feel a boring, a common sense or two basic because when we're in this mindset of like, everything I share needs to be profound and make me sound like an expert and all of that, then it tends to not really resonate or land on the other side. But when I'm like, I've just had this really basic thought or realisation or this thing, and I'm just gonna share it, I find that is the most helpful, and my brain still wants things to look good and be perfect. And all of that, and it's just learning over time just to ignore that voice, it's probably still gonna be there. Yeah, but to ignore it. And to just be willing, it depends on obviously, on what kind of business the person has, and their positioning, how they want to shop and that kind of thing. But I just love the people who shared the real stuff that's going on. So I also share the real stuff that's going on for me. Same Yeah, I definitely resonate with people just sharing the real stuff going on for them. And I, you know, I think what you said is so important is like when you know, people are portraying that like, I'm the expert, I have it all figured out. I actually think that's really detrimental for everyone. Because it's like, we develop this, like, we put people on these like pedestals and they become separate from us. And we think they have the answers and that we don't. And ultimately, my, you know, one of my deepest beliefs about coaching is that like we all have the answers within us. And coaching is a tool to support us in accessing those answers. But when we're trying to be the perfect expert, we I think we robbed people of that opportunity to be their own Guru, you could say, Yeah, I've just found as well. Like, if I tried to be like I've, throughout the journey, my business, I've like, tried all different ways of speaking about things. And that whenever I'm speaking in the sense of like, you should do this, or you should do that. It's so hard. And I just find it really challenging to even come up with anything to say, because then you think about, well, this person in that situation, and that wouldn't apply to that and you just kind of water things down. But I find that when I talk about myself, in my experiences, I share my clients and their experiences. And I'm just going to attract in like trusting that it's going to attract the people who resonate with that it's not going to resonate with everyone. But then I can be really specific. And that's how people I hear all the time who listen to my podcast feel like I'm in their head, is because their head is similar to my head. And I'm just trying to I'm being willing to be specific about it. Because I'm talking about myself instead of if I was just trying to talk about, you know, here's the advice that you should follow. I just found it so hard to give general advice, because it's going to be general. So not very compelling. But also it's not going to apply to everyone and so we have to just water it down so much so that no one could say anything bad about it. I love that idea of like leaning into specificity with your own experiences and what you've gone through because I think I mean, there's been so many times in my business where I'm like, they said I got out I got out and then I'm like I got it got it do all the things right? And then it doesn't feel authentic or true. And I think like, I like you find so much truth and authenticity and sharing from my own embodied experience authentically. And I recently sent an email in the last couple of months. And my emails typically get like 1% of people clicking on them, this email, got 17% of people clicking on it, I almost did not send it because it was so vulnerable is talking about the shame. And the fear is that I experienced in my business, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, should I send this and I put it in draft. So I was like, minute, let's just think about it a little bit more last Sunday, I ended up asking my like, intuition, intuition. Would you have resend this email? And it was like, yes. So like, Okay, send that email. And it like, is the most resonant email I've ever sent? And it was the most like, scary, vulnerable one. And I don't think that's a coincidence at all. Yeah, and something I'm actually it's a bit of a tangent now, but I'm thinking about lately is something a coach, friend of mine posted about how sometimes the most vulnerable thing we can do is stand in our power? And really, like, yes, share the messy side, and that kind of thing, which I've done a lot of, but also exploring, like, what does it look like to really just stand firm and what you believe and sharing that? And, yeah, that's just something I'm thinking about. Because it is, especially with perfectionism, and the people pleasing and fear of judgement and that kind of thing. That yes, it is vulnerable to share those struggles that we're having. But I think for me, like the next layer of vulnerability is like really leaning into the power that I have and creating safe in feeling that way. And yeah, sharing that. So I think it's sharing both of those. But yeah, there's so much power in it. And well, we're all human. We all have these feelings and everything. And I just find it on my journey. It's been so comforting and relieving when someone else who especially when they're succeeding, they share like, Hey, here's what my life is actually, like, it just helped me feel like oh, okay, well, nothing's gone wrong with me, then. I love that you brought that up, because I think it's so powerful to think about the other side of the coin is like, yeah, on your struggle is be vulnerable, and own your fucking power. Yeah, like, own your guests own your expertise, like you get to do both. And I think that, that, that just like, that feels so light in my body right now. Or it's like, I don't have to be the perfect expert who has it all figured out. And I also don't have to be this like vulnerable person who just like oozing struggles, I get to be both I get to be the human who struggles and I also get to be the answer. And they're not mutually exclusive and separate. Yeah, and not even like they're not mutually exclusive. Like they support each other. And they're really like, what helps us stand in our power is being willing to be in the messiness of it, and like vice versa. And I think it's just so helpful to explore that. And really notice how we can bring in more vulnerability in Yeah, sharing circles and in Yes, standing their own power as well. So good, I'm loving this conversation. Alrighty, so let's talk about I know you mentioned the five perfectionist tendencies that many business owners fall into it. Can we talk about those? Yeah. First, can we talk about perfectionism and what it is because Oh, yeah. I just want to frame it with that. Because, yeah, there might be people who are listening. And like I said, I thought my perfectionism stuff was motivation stuff. And once I had a word for it, and not in a label of like, cool, now, I'm perfectionist, and perfectionism is bad and toxic. And all of this, it's not about that. Perfectionism is not toxic. Perfectionism is just a mindset, it's just a set of thoughts. And if, like, I found, at least when I had a word for it, I could then solve for it. But when I thought it was motivation, and this kind of surface level thing that I could never fully solve, I was just spinning my wheels. But once it's like, oh, it's just perfectionism. And there's a word for it. So that means other people might be experiencing it as well. So it's not just me. And now I can actually have language that then allows me to get out of my own way and like, figure out how to do that. So if we could talk a bit about what perfectionism is because it's so misunderstood, and a lot of people then are not able to identify with it, and they're not able to really explore what it looks like to release that perfectionism. For sure. And I relate to that so much. Like, you know, I think there's a lot of like, people who think Oh, perfectionism is just that person who is spent 100 hours on the PowerPoint, like perfecting the font and perfecting the colours. And it like can't be that but I think it's so much more on like, You've really helped me see that even with like procrastination. My mind is like I don't procrastinate at all like no, but then when you really get to the deeper layers of it It's like, well Oh shit. Yeah, I do because it's actually like this sneakiest forums where you're like doing other things or like busy work or this or that, that you wouldn't even like recognise is that so? Yes, I would love if you could tell us more about, like, what is not and what it is. So we can have that like self awareness, because I think through that starting point of self awareness is like from there, we have the power and the freedom to start shifting and opening up so many new possibilities. Yeah, so I, as I mentioned before, Brene Brown has been very influential in my own journey. And I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with her. She's incredible. And I love the way that she talks about perfectionism. And she really allowed me to see that it is just a strategy to avoid shame. A lot of people talk about perfectionism as this is how I initially thought about it, in my early years of thinking about perfectionism was that it's fear of failure, but it's actually fear of the emotion of shame. And so perfectionism, as Brene Brown describes it is this belief set, this idea that if we just look perfect and do everything perfectly, then we can avoid blame, judgement and shame. And that perfectionist really aren't perfect people, like we think perfectionist of the people who actually managed to do everything perfect. They're organised and neat, that tidy, but perfectionist people who feel ashamed that they are not perfect. And when we feel ashamed that we are not perfect, what we do, yes, we try and do a lot of perfecting, but a lot of what we do is avoiding imperfection. So that's where procrastination comes in. And particularly for perfectionist, productive procrastination, like we want to feel productive all the time. We don't like resting, and we talk about clean, rested, that kind of thing. But we tend to not want to rest, we really want to be feeling productive. So we will procrastinate in these more subtle ways. So that we can still feel like we're being productive, but without the vulnerability of doing something that might fail or might succeed. And in that success, we create disconnection and distance from people in our lives if we're no longer relatable now that we're so successful in different things like that. So in terms of the five signs of perfectionism, it is procrastination, overwhelm burnouts, all or nothing thinking and fear of judgement. And that kind of covers the main ways that perfectionism manifests. And a lot of it involves withholding effort. And we can talk about the fixed mindset and the growth mindset. But when we're in the perfectionist mindset, we're really thinking about effort being a sign of inadequacy, we want things to be natural, and effortless and easy, and to get it right right away, and all of that kind of thing. So a lot of the perfectionist tendencies are actually ways to avoid putting a full effort in. So procrastination is a great example of that if we procrastinate and leave something until the last minute, we get to protect our potential because we can say, well, you know, I would have done better if I hadn't done it the last minute, and a lot of us we do well, at the last minute, we get the result that we want, even though we haven't fully experienced our best work yet, because we haven't even given ourselves the chance to get it done ahead of time. But we live in this paradigm of, well, I would have done better if I tried harder. And we get to feel extra Smart if we do it at the last minute. And we did well because then we can think well imagine how well I would have done if I tried my hardest. And so it's this whole construct so that we can feel smart, we can feel worthy, we can feel lovable. And it's so human to feel that way. And a lot of us very smart, intelligent, were praised for being that way. So it feels like our love ability is connected to our intelligence. And so when it comes to business, which is a field related to intelligence, that we don't want to look silly, we don't want to look like we're trying really hard and it's not working. So we'll be doing a lot of stopping and starting, and all of those different kinds of things to avoid the vulnerability that comes with the feeling of having put in a full effort. And it not going as planned. Yeah, that just resonates like so much. And I think it's like, so sneaky, like our brains will come up with the most clever and creative and sneaky ways in, like, in good faith is to try to protect us. It's from this shame that our mind believes is so bad and so painful. And what I like to remind myself of is that the worst thing that can ever happen in any scenario ever will obviously you could die, like but I got aside, the worst thing that could happen, it's an emotion. And when you were willing and able to feel and experience your emotions and you realise that you aren't them, you don't have to react to them and they don't mean everything about you and then and when you're in really high emotions. You don't have to believe all the thoughts that your brain is telling you. You realise that? Oh, I can just Direct like, have this emotional way of experience it, allow it to feel through and pass through, and then operate not from that emotional reaction to shame. But from Okay, now I felt this and now I can really operate from I think you, you know, you would call it like your future self, your higher self. Yeah, yeah, feeling emotions is such an important part of this. And it's something that we often like to just skip over. And no, I want this strategy. I want the like, how to steps and really getting comfortable, like trusting ourselves to be okay with feeling our emotions, and then we're not going to get swallowed up by them and things like that. And, and knowing as well, like, for me, I've just, when I've gotten present to shame for me, it's just like a hot face. And like my heart rate up a bit. And like, it's yes, it's an emotion, but also, when I really get clear on the physical sensations, it just helps remind my brain that it's not so bad. Like, it feels really painful to think about shame. I think there have been studies on like, a shame is a physically painful emotion. But I think a lot of that pain is like our bracing ourselves for the shame. And when we just can cleanly process it and have that shame, resilience, and just be able to speak our shame in like with someone that it's, it's a safe environment to do that. And we're able to just let it go through us, it's really not so bad. But when we're trying to avoid shame. And often for perfectionist, we shame ourselves so much. So like we're not avoiding, it's like not an effective strategy to avoid shame. We spend so much more time into the whole time we're, yeah, we're shaped by beating ourselves up, we should have done it differently, or better or whatever. So it's just ironic way that it works. But it's been so helpful for me to just recognise how that sensation feels in my body. And that shame is really just a thought. And that also, shame is so universal, I love the same what's most personal is most universal. That's another belief that helps me share what I'm going through because I'm like, Well, if this feels super personal, then I know it's going to be something that a lot of other people can resonate with. So the same with shame. And like all humans, experience that emotion, there's no getting out of it. And that's not a problem. And we don't need to go to these great lengths to avoid it. But I think another part of perfectionism and releasing article, your perfectionism HandBrake is knowing that just because you know, better doesn't mean that you should just automatically be out of your own way. And I think with perfectionism, and this is why I'm so passionate about talking about it, is that people like just remember, nobody's perfect. And all these kinds of mantras, and a lot of like, anytime I come across pretty much any podcast episode about perfectionism, it's always this kind of like, don't try to be perfect. Why are you trying to be perfect? No one's perfect. To be perfect, it's like, well, I've already done now like, thing. Yeah. And so what I really help people with is like, what does it actually look like in practice, to release your perfectionism and to get into that growth mindset? And really speaking to the practical strategies and things we can do instead of just, you know, preaching about, Well, nobody's perfect. So stop trying, I was just always so frustrated, because I was like, I know. And I'm still over here trying to be perfect and avoid imperfection. So what do I actually do? And so, yeah, what I teach is what to actually do. And yeah, I hope it's helpful for people but it's, it's really all about trying to avoid shame. And when we can be like, Oh, it's just my brain trying to protect me, it's doing its job. And also that strategy of perfectionism served us like, that's why it can feel so challenging and unsafe sometimes to let it go. Because we've done pretty well. There are people in our life who like think were successful, and love us and all these things, and we can start to make that connection that we loved, because of the perfectionism and because of being smart and being intelligent, all these things. So we need to keep doing that instead of realising that it's despite that not because of it, and once we can start to recognise that it is despite those perfectionist tendencies that we've been successful, and we can create emotional safety around letting go and letting ourselves succeed and letting ourselves fail and trusting ourselves to feel whatever feelings are on the other side of that are in the process of that. Then so much opens up. And as we've talked about, business is such a great tool for all of this. Like I love not just like intellectually thinking about perfectionism and how to get out of your own way but using your business and putting Can I teach people how to use planning as a tool to get it done? And also, at the same time, get out of your own way and show up fully? So good. So what do you do when a difficult emotion comes up or like a shame spiral comes up, and there's something triggering that happens in your business, maybe a launch and it go the way you really wanted it to go or something like that. And you're in the emotions, like, what do you do with us coming up? Yeah, well, I'm not perfect at it. But an example that I will share is with my podcast, and especially like, whenever you're doing something, it really feels like you, it is going to be the easiest to feel shame about that. Because it's easy to have thoughts about there being something wrong with us. It's, as I mentioned, if we're doing something we don't really care about, like when I was working full time in accounting. It's almost like you're a bad accountant. Okay, cool. I don't really think of myself as an accountant. I'm not really hurt by that. But when it's something we really feel like it's us, then it could just feel like, I don't know more of like, a real attack on who we are, and that kind of thing. So anyway, with my podcast, I share, as I mentioned, a lot of stuff. I'm really myself on my podcast. And so I was looking at reviews and like, up until the point that this happened, I only had positive reviews. And it was always like, Oh, this is great. And everyone's like, I love the podcast. And then I was checking in and there were two reviews that were like one star and it was like this is rambly. And basically like especially this is where it happens the boys is if someone reflects back to us the shameful thoughts that we have about ourselves. So like, Oh, this is rambley. This doesn't make sense that and I just felt like I just remember it's really my laptop and seeing it and just my, like that heavy feeling in the pit of my stomach. And my face just got like so hot. And I could feel this like sensation in my chest. And I just felt like this wash of shame come over me. And I was actually at the time at my part time job. And that happened. So I wasn't in a great place to like, price it I just kind of like, let it be that and I actually what I did, which was so helpful, is I immediately messaged a couple of friends that I knew would be able to hold the space for me. And I just was kind of like, Hey, I've just gotten this feedback. And I don't even know exactly what I was expecting to hear like what I hope to hear probably something affirming. But I just like I feel really ashamed. And I think just like letting yourself call it that and naming it that and it just instead of it being like my little secret that I'd received these bad reviews, to just share it with someone was so helpful. So I messaged them, and I was like, this is just you know what's happened. And I just like feel really ashamed about it, basically. And then when I got home to this way, I'm not perfect at it. Steve, who's about to become my husband, my fiance, he, I got home and I just basically like went to our room and was very quiet. And he's like, what's up? I was like, nothing, I'm fine. He's like, No, you're not because you're normally very chatty. And you're not telling it all. And then I just like, let myself cry. I was like, these are the reviews, I go and bless him. He was like, Well, I don't listen to your podcast, but I'm sure it's great and like, but he just let me cry about like, I just was like, I just need to cry, like I just need to, like, let that feeling come up and be with it for as long as it needs to be that without an agenda. It's really important when we're processing shame. It's, if we're doing it with an agenda of it feels horrible, I'm gonna let myself feel it so I can get out of this feeling, it's going to hang around. But if it's like, I'm just willing to be with this feeling and let it be present in my body, for as long as it needs to be there, then that's when we can really process it. So I just cried. And let myself feel that and it was just for me as well, that was such an informative experience. Because previously, I wouldn't have told anyone about the reviews, I probably would have kept checking back to see if there were more coming. And it just would have become this, like dirty little secret that people thought I wasn't good at it or whatever. And I would just like let that shame fester. And when it comes to shame, resilience, I love that Brene Brown talks about speaking the shame. And to do that in a vulnerable way to not do that in like a haha, look at these bad reviews kind of way because that's not vulnerable. And to not necessarily do it with like people that are just gonna, like hype you up and be like, Oh, no, it's amazing. But to just if there's something that if there isn't someone that we have in our life that will hold the space for us to just even write about it in your journal and that kind of thing. Or if people resonate with recording things like for yourself just recording something maybe like a voice note for yourself to just voice it. And to do that in a vulnerable way. And of course that requires courage because it could be that we can do that and someone's like well yeah, I've been meaning to tell you that that's okay. And like what kind of open to that but yeah, it's really about Be willing to speak it and to name it and to let it be in our body for as long as it needs to be there. And to know as well that it's a practice that it's not like, well, now I know about this, that that's what I should do every single time. It's really just having grace with yourself and compassion with yourself. And when you do identify that you are feeling ashamed about something, to then voice it. As I said, it could be in your journal, it can be with someone else that you trust, and to let yourself experience a shame because the more often we let ourselves actually experience shame instead of avoiding it, our brain starts to realise that it isn't dangerous to feel shame. Because our brains like shame is the fear of disconnection. So our brain is like disconnection is death. If I'm disconnected from others in the tribe, I'm gonna die. Shame is like the cue that that's happening. I don't want to be in shame. But the more and more we can be in it, that's when we can really be growth minded about things and have a really high tolerance for failure and be really resilient. When we can start to really understand like, in our bodies, that shame is an okay feeling to experience and that we're not going to die. Because our brain literally thinks that it literally thinks shame. Like, yeah, it's fine that I'm about to die. So yeah, it's, it's something that you can intellectually understand. But it really is about doing it and knowing it in your body. And that comes with practice and courage and a lot of repetition. Yeah, and it's never permanent. Like, I think we're in it, it feels so permanent, it feels like this is the biggest thing ever. It's never gonna go away. And I, you know, really didn't start feeling and experiencing my emotions, hardly at all. The last like two years, like, Oh, what a motion thing. And, you know, the more you are, like, open up to and allow them you realise that, like, they're never permanent, my brain still likes to tell the story I've been for two years, I feel like I've just been allowing and releasing emotions. And yet when I still have a really big one come up. I you know what, I know that if I pause, if I go into breathing, if I go into my body, where am I feeling this and actually feel it, it will always pass. But my brain still likes to tell this story. This is happen to work, this one's too big, this is not gonna pass, you're stuck with this. And it's just like, okay, just breathe. And then I just always come back to okay, just like literally keep feeling it, keep breathing, keep feeling it breathing it, am I right? Like this is never gonna go away, this is ever gonna go away. And then somehow, if you stick with that process of having awareness of this sensation in the body, and you really go into the body, rather than the head, dissipate every time. And then on the other side, it's such a gift, that feeling on the other side of actually having allowed yourself to feel it like you probably felt after that experience crying with Steve about the reviews, you probably felt so much better, so much more free. Yeah, and I still felt like exhausted from all the crying and all of that, but I just felt so much. Yeah, like so much lighter. And just like I had my own back, and it's such a great feeling to be in that and that really is only available to us when we are willing to experience any emotion. And yeah, that's something I've been working on a lot as well is really practising naming how I'm feeling I like to go to more my thoughts and like what am I thinking and walking on that side of things, but also looking at like, what am I feeling and getting in tune with that and I've been looking at a hidden if you Google feelings wheel, there are these charts that have all these different names of the emotions and I found that really helpful when I'm like, I don't actually know how I'm feeling right now especially if I'm not feeling in a particularly heightened or low kind of energy. I'm just like, day to day I'm like, I don't really know what I'm feeling and I've just been practising like going to that feelings wheel as basic as that sounds like feelings and seeing like okay, like kind of trying them on like is that how I'm feeling not really are that home feeling just to have that vocabulary so then once you can name it and identify it's so much easier to process a feeling or to really harness a feeling when you know what that feeling is instead of this vague like good or bad which is when perfection is we tend to think in oh nothing and we also very judgmental, so it's like good and this was a huge realisation around this for me good is on a feeling so often I like how are you feeling good like I just really was thinking like good is a feeling to feel good. And when I was like oh like on this feeling will I mean it says bad on the feelings will as well which I would tend to disagree that like bad is a feeling but good isn't anywhere on that feelings will there's like all these different words for like positive and Emotions, positive vibrations that we can experience but good wasn't there and to recognise good isn't a feeling. So if I'm telling myself, I'm feeling good, if I hear myself saying someone else, I'm feeling good to just like, check in with myself. And then what am I actually experiencing? Like, how am I actually feeling if I couldn't call it good. And that as well has just really helped me to have a bit of a richer emotional life. And to just be more in tune with that, because it has felt unsafe and scary, and a lot of ways to be fully in touch with my emotions. And I think a lot of people will be able to relate to that, that we've all had different experiences where it feels like if we really let ourselves go into our emotions, or we express them, or we let other people see us experiencing our emotions, and we're not safe. And to have a just a word for it, even if it's very basic word have just found to be really helpful. And that gives me as well, more access to naming the feelings when it's not a like positive feeling. Yeah, it's so helpful. And that's actually something that and my first therapy session with my current therapist a few weeks ago, she asked me at the end of the session, like how are you feeling right now? And I was like, ah, ah, I don't really know. Yet. She was like, Okay, here's this feeling, we'll go back at it and tell me how you feel. And then I was like, Oh, I didn't even like, really, I wasn't able to articulate that it was actually like frustration and anger and these feelings that I probably would have felt like, no, not, not me. I don't have those right now. But I did. And it was like, as soon as I, like identified them on the wheel, there was this, like, sense of relief and letting go, and I actually pulled this card from my Oracle deck today. And it said, Joy is blowing a motion. And it didn't say joy is the good emotions, the happy emotion, bliss, or ecstasy, Joy is flowing emotion. So it doesn't mean you're only having good emotions, it means you're having whatever emotion you're having, and you're allowing it to flow and move and not is like the ultimate experience of joy. Because it's like, we can't get rid of emotions, we are humans. And it's like, the less that we resist them. And the more we allow them, it just becomes like this, they aren't as bad. There's like, there's like this emotion. And then we layer on top of all that shame, and judgement, and that and when we remove all those extra layers, it's like, oh, just literally is just a sensation in my body. Yeah, and just to bring it back to perfectionism. And just to really underline like, talking about emotions. Perfectionism is a strategy to avoid shame. And so a lot of times, like, say, with procrastination is an easy example. There's a lot of procrastination advice out there about how to stop and not much of it is centred around, getting okay with feeling however, you're feeling like all of this kind of thing. And it's just all these like surface level strategies of like use an internet blocker and that kind of thing. And what we're talking about is how to release that perfectionism and what that actually looks like. And as I mentioned, I teach that through planning, and it's called Power planning. And using that as a tool to develop self trust, and part of self trust is learning to trust yourself to be okay, no matter how you're feeling. And it's so important to just recognise I know, I'm just projecting here, maybe. But when I had previously heard conversations about emotion, I'm like, nope, not for me. I'm very action oriented. I just want like, the tips or practical strategies, the how to use, gotta get it done. And once I really opened up to like, okay, emotions are important, and the hot like, I wouldn't need all these action tips and strategies, if I was willing to feel however, I was feeling that that was when things really started to open up for me. And as I feel I'm still very much on this journey, I think we all are for our entire lives. And that's the beautiful thing about it. It's not all or nothing like you either have complete mastery over this and the benefits of it, or you're still figuring it out. And therefore you have no benefit of it. It's really like every bit of progress that we can make with being more connected and in tune with ourselves and experiencing our emotions, the benefits of that. I don't know about your experience, but in mind, like so dramatic and profound. It's not all or nothing. And I think it's just important to mention that too, because with perfectionism with feeling your feelings, it's easy to be like, oh cool, now I have this whole mountain of work to do. And it can feel very overwhelming but like even if you make just like a 1% bit of improvement or progress with your relationship with yourself and that kind of thing, like the impact of that is Is 10 fold and then some like it's really not about having to get all the way there before you experience any of the benefits from doing this work? Yeah, there's like one small shift. And I'm sure people listening have already had that just through listening today. It's like one small shift that you've had, and your thinking and your feeling and your action today can like literally completely transform your life and not choose one. And that is why I love coaching so much. Because yeah, I mean, to have those ones all the time, and they just add up and compound to so much expansion and so much good. Yeah, sorry, I was just gonna say on that note, something that we haven't mentioned yet about perfectionism that I think is really important. I've mentioned briefly how it's not toxic. And just recognising perfectionism. Like, yes, it might be a pattern, a tendency that we've had, usually since we were children, but it's coming from our present day thoughts. And that is something that has been so helpful for me to recognise because what tends to happen when a perfectionist realises they're a perfectionist in his battle this out, it's like, Oh, my goodness, I have to like relive all this childhood trauma, I have to go back and get to the root of things. I have to like, uncover all of this. And there's definitely a time in place for that kind of work. And if we can recognise perfectionist tendencies, for example, procrastination, or nothing thinking like anything that's having us get in our own way, that is coming from how we were thinking today. And yes, our brain might be very, very familiar with that thought, because it's handled a lot of times. But it's coming from our thinking today. And that allows us to take ownership over it and responsibility for it instead of, oh, well, it's because my uncle or my parent or whoever talked to me a certain way, or it's because of the school teachers or what, like, it's very easy to just blame, well, this person praise me in this certain way, or whatever. That's why I'm a perfectionist to be like, hey, it's actually like, that way of thinking served me when I was a child. And I needed others to look after me, because I couldn't yet look after myself. Now I'm an adult. And I can recognise as well that how I'm acting today is coming from how I'm thinking today. And it's possible to change those thoughts. It just makes it in my experience, and with my clients, like it's so much lighter and more approachable, and like I need to get to the root of it. The root is where humans we want to be connected to everyone. Shame is to feel fear of disconnection. It's human to feel shame. Like when like all the root, like the root is we don't feel good enough, for whatever reason. But it's like, we all have the same route, being a human. And when we can just recognise Oh, it's a thought pattern that I have today. That is making me get in my own way that's making me people please or be scared of judgement or procrastinate or feel overwhelmed, then it's just so much easier for us to release that handbrake and make the changes we want to, instead of feeling like, Well, my childhood had to be different for me to be different today. Yeah, and then we're no longer a victim to the past, we actually like are realised that we have the power, all of our power is in the now. We cannot go back and change anything. Yeah, but we do have the power in this moment. So I love bringing it back to that. And I think that just like, opens up so much to remember that like, oh, yeah, my power is right here right now in this moment. Yeah. And like there's no deep dark route that we have to like, uncover. And yeah, as I said, there's a time and a place for sure to look at your past. But we also want to just be focused on how we're thinking today. And how we can change our thinking, like you said, with coaching, it's just like, what's one thought that you could have that's different that will have a dramatic impact. And what's one, though, that you already believe that you just haven't been thinking as often as these other thoughts that you could be having. So yeah, I just wanted to mention that because a lot of time like, Oh, now I realise I'm perfectionist, and it's so bad to be a perfectionist. And now I need to get to the root of it. Like that's not the case at all. Yeah, and digging for the root, I feel like can often be poor, or not fractious, and procrastination. Yeah. 100%. If I'm looking and looking and looking and looking and looking for this route, then I do not have to look at how I'm feeling right now or how I'm thinking right now. And I guess it just, like, devote all of my energy into this route and avoid everything else is I'm actually experiencing right now. Yeah, like I talk about procrastinate learning, which is learning as a form of procrastination. And it kind of relates to that it's like, procrastinate, self development kind of thing that we are just using it as something to keep us busy. So we don't have to go and do the courageous, scary thing that we need to do or the tedious challenging thing or whatever it is that we just kind of stay busy with, like, well, I just need to get to the root of it. And then I can figure things that instead of being like, well, actually, maybe it's just how I'm thinking today. And I can do the thing and show up today and put myself out there like that feels so scary. So we're like, no, no, I'll just do all this work and do all these personal development courses. And so I should probably do some Instagram marketing courses and all these different things. And we just keep ourselves really busy instead of just getting shit done and doing the thing and learning how to have our own back and have courage as we're inaction. Oh, yeah. So good. And I know that we don't have too much time left. So when I think about like the other questions I wanted to ask you, I'm going to I'm going to look at my list. And I'm just going to be vulnerable. And take a pause here and really think about what I want to say, because I want to have an intentional question that's meaningful for me and everyone listening. Okay, this is when I definitely wanted to ask you. So what's something in your business that used to feel really hard, but now feels quite easy? And what? What shifted? What changed? Yeah, oh, that's a great question. I would say something just because top of mind because we're recording this would be recording podcast episodes or being interviewed or like, being on camera or that kind of thing. That that is something that for sure. Like, it's so crazy when you normalise something that just feels like you've always felt a certain way about it. But for example, with podcasting, I just, I was such a big fan of podcast, like, that's how I got into business was listening to business post business podcasts. And I always just thought, like, I could never do that like that. No, like, I could never do that. It's gonna be horrible. And no one would ever listen. And I can't just like because especially with podcasting, you just like have to give yourself permission. It has no podcasting, police and like, decide to start and you start. And that was something that it's not so much that recording the episodes themselves was hard, because once I gave myself permission to do that, I it's probably obvious how to chat about and, and just decided that my podcasting format was going to be long form me chatting, no editing, which is really helped actually, things like this feels so easy to me, because I'm so used to recording without things being edited out. And so I'm not used to, you know, saying things over and over and over again, to get it right, I just say it and trust it, it's going to be what it needs to be and move on. But giving myself permission to start that was something that was really big. And it felt so hard, before I gave myself permission. And I was just thinking about it and all of that kind of thing. And then once I actually let myself so my brain still tells me like to about at least 50% of the episodes that was shipped. I don't upload that. And I just upload it anyway, and I keep moving. But that is something that now feels easy. And yeah, in terms of what changed, because I think as well, like when I was early in the days of recording, it did feel hard. But it was my beliefs that I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know who I'm helping, which like, it's so fun listening back to my earlier episodes, I'm talking about the exact same things I talked about today, I just changed my belief from I don't know what I'm talking about to I do know what I'm talking about. So I think that belief and I have actually written behind me, or in front of me, on my whiteboard that I have in my office, it just says be insanely helpful and invite them in as the marketing strategy. And then my beliefs that create that is I know what I'm doing. I know how to help them. I'm talking to the people who want me to help them. And a few other things related to that. And then how I feel like how I want to feel and I have about 20 Emotions listed that to just like, remind my brain, this is what we are focused on generating and to just pay attention and process when I'm not in one of those feelings. But yeah, that belief of I know what I'm doing, it feels like well, once I get more qualifications, or I have more clients and more customers or more testimonials, like we can really deny ourselves of that experience of knowing what we're doing. And I'm not a certified life coach. Like I'm not I don't have like all of these. I have a law degree and a finance degree. But I don't have any like certifications around that. And I think it's easy to be in this mindset of like, well, I need all of this external validation, validation to think the thought that I know what I'm doing. And we can think that thought and it's never going to deny us of learning more. I think we can think if I think I know what I'm doing. I'm not gonna learn anything, I need to be more so thinking like, I don't know what I'm doing so I can figure it out. But when we believe I know what I'm doing that creates more of us knowing what we're doing and if we need to get education or whatever, we're going to do that more so when we're in the belief of I know what I'm doing versus I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, I love that and something that you know, I like a few months ago I was having A lot of impostor syndrome coming up that feeling of like, I don't know what I'm doing at all, I do not know absolutely anything, they're going to find me out. And what came through like so clearly from my like intuition, higher self, that inner voice, whatever you want to call it was that is the like thought that you don't know what you're doing is literally just a thought. Like it is not a fact, it is not truth. It is not necessarily based in reality, like, it's just a thought. And that was so afraid for me to remember like, Oh, my brain is just having a thought to protect me. But I don't have to buy into that thought. And it doesn't mean it's true. Yeah. And like I still like our brains will still generate that thought. And it's just a matter of learning not to listen to it, rather than we think, well, I need to wait for that voice to completely go away. And now I believe in myself. And maybe if I like get this qualification, or have this many number of clients or this revenue, then it will go away. It's like, well, what if it's going to be there the whole time, because from what I've heard from people who are insanely successful, by all metrics, it doesn't go away. It's just our human tendency to have that thought. But knowing that, we don't need to listen to it and react to it, we can just kind of let it be there in the backseat and be like, cool, I hear you. And also this is something that's really helped me with the emotional work is to think about, I don't know if there's like when you talk to but like your inner child and thinking about when we're in those emotions, like what you would say to a child who was in that emotion, and I noticed that for myself. A lot of times, I had really been dismissive. Like, No, you shouldn't be feeling that way. Oh, like, Holy fuck, yes. Like, you should freak out, you should totally freak out. This isn't gonna work. And when I was like, talking to myself, like, Hey, I see you, I understand why you feel that way. And I've got your back. And like that kind of thing. It's like the acknowledgement and the acceptance of it being there without it. Like without saying, Okay, now to the child, now you drive the car, because I have no idea what I'm doing. It's just like, I see you I have your back, we're going to be okay. And even if things don't turn out how we want them to, it's not like this dismissive, like, things will be fine, things will be fine. Because we all know, like, if you're a child, and you're really scared of something, and an adult tells you, it's going to be okay, you'll be fine. Don't worry about it, you shouldn't be scared, that doesn't help you be less scared. But if they say like, Hey, I know this is scary. I know you might be experiencing that. But let's explore this, like, here's what's going on, and you know, this thing could happen. And even if that happened, we'd be okay. Like, it's that kind of tone that really helps us to be in that feeling. And I really had that experience, like an experience it embodied and like showed that to me when I was pregnant, and I had fallen over, like tripped over. And I was like, freaking out about, like, wondering if the baby's okay. And just like, and he's a paramedic, but he was also just like, I think you're okay. But if you want to go to the hospital and have it, have the baby checked out, we can go to the hospital, and it was just as kind of like, he wasn't like, Oh, my God is the baby. Okay, is a baby, okay? Is baby Kate and he wasn't like, you'll be fine. She'll be fine. The baby, we find it was just like, hey, I think like, we're gonna be okay here. But like, what's coming up for you? How do you want to handle this? And then from that, I was like, oh, cool, I would like to go to the hospital. And we could just do that. And there was no like, drama around it. But you know, so often, we just dismiss ourselves and how we're feeling or we like, feed into it and make ourselves feel so much worse. So I think that's a really important part of all of this is being able to talk to ourselves in that really compassionate way. And for me, I've just found it helpful to think about, like, how would I talk to a child, say, like, a seven year old, a 10 year old, who is feeling that way and what would actually land with them, and to practice speaking to myself that way, and it's been so helpful, and I'm not perfect at that by any stretch. But just being aware of it and practising that has really helped me feel okay with feeling how I'm feeling and not to dismiss it or feed into that and be like, holy shit, yes, we should totally freak out. Because we have no idea what we're doing at all. It's like, you're thinking you don't know what you're doing. But let's have a look at like, how it might be true that you do know what you're doing. And like, that kind of energy I've just found really helpful and really neat. Yeah, so powerful. Instead of going into the complete dismissal, or the complete adding fuel to the fire, it's like, how can we come in with understanding and compassion? It's like giving yourself that, like, validation of like, Oh, I'm allowed to feel this way and that I feel like just takes off so much of the weight already. And then it's like, yeah, it's like, how would you speak to a child it's like you wouldn't tell them like what that fuck is wrong with you? Like you should have figured out by now you should be farther along by now. Like no Of course not you would see them for the perfection that they are in this moment. And it's like, how can we begin to see ourselves in that way? And I think that's such a beautiful practice of, of giving that gift to ourselves as like, well, what would I say to a child who was experiencing this sweet, loving, innocent child who I see as this perfect being? So I love that. Yeah. What's something I have two more questions for you? What's something that has been challenging for you recently, I've just so many things like jet. But I have just actually released a whole podcast series on it. But I for the last PTSD launch, and my programme is perfectionist getting shit done. I was doing the work to create all the launch content ahead of time. And I did that. And though just I mean, I can't summarise it's literally like five hours of podcast episodes relating to this. So if anyone's interested, and it was my podcast, but I spend less than just learning for me like something that I've been working on and paying attention to is a feeling of entitlement in my business. And I think this is something that I would say pretty much any entrepreneur can relate to when we allow ourselves to be okay with it being entitlement, because I think there's a lot of judgement that we have around other people being entitled and around calling ourselves entitled, it's not saying like, Hey, I've just realised I'm entitled, that's amazing. But when we have thoughts like I should be further along, or I shouldn't have to do that, or they should be signing up. Those are thoughts of entitlement. And so I just through that experience, notice, and this relates back to what I said at the beginning, when we procrastinate and leave things to the last minute that we think, you know, well, I would have done better if I'd done it early. And if we do well, we think well imagine how well I would have done it. It's just this whole way that we protect our potential. And we get to think like imagine what if instead of actually saying what if. And so in this, I actually like let myself see what if and it was so interesting that because I had had that story for so long, that I would have done better if I did it early than when I did do the work early. I had this entitlement that Well, I did it early. So it should be successful. And it was so interesting, because during that launch, I really felt like I was in this like committed belief. That was my experience. And going through that and having the insight like looking at the feelings will after and all these different things. I realised that to me, I was actually feeling entitled. And I hadn't yet been able to distinguish how those felt, I'm so glad that now I can feel the difference. And entitlement comes from a thought that has the word should in it usually. And when we're in belief and commitment and those feelings that we really do want us want to be driving our business and our business decisions. It's more about thinking about our client and their experience, instead of this should be happening, I shouldn't have to do that. And so that was something that I have been working on. And now I'm just paying attention to like, Where's this coming up for me in business and practising like dropping not and like not having any shame about it that I'll like, I shouldn't be feeling entitled and how embarrassing or whatever just being like, oh, that's just a thought. Like, it's just a thought. And now that I've seen that I can instead be focused, like redirect my attention to Okay, let's have a think about the person on the other end, which obviously, we're always thinking about. But it's also easy to get caught up in what we're thinking about ourselves and how we're looking and how we're succeeding or not succeeding and all of that kind of thing, but to just bring it back to the person that I'm helping helping them. And yeah, just being really present with that. And yeah, just not thinking like, well, I did the workout like so they should sign up, or I think this was really wise the thing I said, whatever. So that should have more engagement or things like that to just be like, actually, what's the most helpful thing that I could share? And how can I make sure I'm inviting them into PTSD, which is where they can get the most help with their perfectionism and just being focused on that. So I don't know if that answers your question. But that's something that's really been top of mind to me, and I've really been exploring and working on. I'm so glad you brought that up. I was talking about that with my friend the other day the thought the very thought I should be farther along because I've had that thought so many times every single one of my clients has had that thought and I think for me, probably the thought that has brought me the most pain and shame in my business and life like ever. I'm like that that if I could pin down the one who brings me the most like distress it would be that one. So I'm so glad you brought that up because I think it's so powerful like what you said, I want to practice that with you of notice when that comes up, practice dropping it and recognising it's just a thought and then redirect my focus to my clients and At my service, and when we like, when I let go of the I should be farther along, it's like, it's gonna ask us like, everything is totally fine. And it is what it is like, yeah, we just allow it to be what it is. So I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah, I think like, that's something that in my programme, and with my clients and stuff like that, we're often talking about this belief that I should be further along, I should be making more money by now I should have more clients or customers by now, I shouldn't have to be working in a job, I shouldn't have to like, there's all these ideas that we have about what should be happening. And it's just so interesting that when we're in that belief, we deny ourselves actually creating the experience that we want, like when my busy thinking I should be further along. The result of that is that we don't get further along, because we're so busy often like if, say, if I think I should be further along, we're probably not showing up and doing the things that we need to be doing to build the business. Maybe people are spending time scrolling through Instagram, or comparing themselves to other businesses or learning another Instagram strategy or whatever that looks like. And we just perpetuate being where we are and not being further along. Whilst also recognising obviously, further along behind head, all of that is just this construct that we've created. And it's so interesting whenever we're like, So where exactly should I be? That we don't know? Which is here, but where should I be? Like if it was like, Okay, you should be further along. So like, for example, in terms of money, so exactly how much money should you be making by now? And it's like, well, maybe like that, like when it's so rare that we're like, exactly 500? Or is it 500? Or 1000? Or is it 500 into? Or is it like, at what point do you reach the tipping point where you don't think you should be farther along? And it's like, that's the insidious thing about it. It's like, you're, you're always here, you're always in the now and there is always there. So if you're like, I shouldn't be there. You never are there because it's not here. Yeah, something that really helps me with this is when I zoom out, and I look at my life, big picture, and I think about so I'm 31. And I think about, okay, I'm 31 I've been coaching now for a few years, but like, if I have literally more than my current lifetime ahead of me as a coach. It just is like what like, it just to me, just the question then becomes like, this is all just a journey. And like, why would I want to think that at 31, I'm at the pinnacle of my career, like this idea that, like I, it's really coming from this lack of trust that we have in ourselves that we will get there. So we're in a rush, because we don't trust our future self to get there. So we need to get there now. So we can feel that sense of relief, because we don't know if it's gonna happen. But when it's really like, I know, I'm gonna get there, like, I know, like, 90 year old me on the rocking chair, is gonna be like, slow down, honey, it's all okay, and not in this passive, like, just stop trying, going, you know, watch Netflix, and whatever. It's like, it's like, we all know, when your future self gives you the advice is almost always, it's gonna be okay, just be yourself and show up. Like, it's always some flavour of that. And so being able to zoom out in this way I love like the future self stuff that I find it so helpful with this, like, I should be further along, that when I zoom out and think like 90 year old me, it's just funny to be like, what I even remember exactly where I am, in terms of the business at, like in this exact month of this exactly like it, it really. It's so significant, like our present day life is our life. And also at the same time it's not. And just being able to, like, live in that paradox of like, it's everything. And it's nothing, I don't know if this is making any sense. But I just started to zoom out and be like, oh, like I'm just warming up like this is just like the pre show is getting started, like I find that that's really helpful. Instead of thinking like, well, you should be at this certain checkpoint at this age, and all of that that just made up. And a lot of these ideas that we have, like made up by unhappy people as well. It's not like these ideas are made up by like, these are the happiest people in the world. And here's what their criteria is for where you should be at what age and where you should be in terms of business revenue or whatever. It's just, I know, it's one of these things of like, Yeah, but I still find myself thinking I should be further along. And I find for me, it's just like when I have that thought knowing my brain is probably going to keep having that thought. Maybe one day it'll stop great. But if I can just in that moment, zoom out and get that perspective. I find that really helpful and to just be focused on like, if you zoom out, there's going to be this upward trend, but in the moment it's going to be like ups and downs and ebbs and flows and all of that, which is a beautiful thing. And then when you zoom out, it is going to be this incredible trajectory. But in the moment, we often like don't feel how much we're growing because we just have it. I know like, when I look back at past me, who was thinking she should be further along, I'm like, Oh, I was exactly where I needed to be. And also with like, all the perfectionism stuff I'm talking about, if I hadn't been so severely in my own way, especially in my first three years of business, I wouldn't be able to talk to anything that I've spoken to today, I had to, like experience that and like, be in that. And that has really allowed me to be where I am now. But it was so easy to be like, Oh, I should already be successful immediately. And I've already been doing this for a year or whatever. Like, when I started, this is something I know, there's I'm going on about it, but somebody helped me was when I started was just being willing to do it for two years, regardless of how it was going and to let myself judge it once I got to the two year mark, which by the way, I wasn't making any money, the two year mark, like I was doing my own way. But by that point, I was like, Well, I'm doing this thing. But I allowed myself like any times that I would, you know, put my foot on the brake, so to speak, like I wouldn't post for months or things like that, instead of thinking like, Oh, now I've banned in it. And I've quit and I need to get back on track, just like I'm still doing the thing. Like I've never not been doing the thing. Sometimes it's looked more active than others, but I'm still doing the thing. And I'm willing to do this for two years and not judge it for that period of time. And then once I like had that timeframe, instead of constantly thinking like, I should be further along, I should be further along. It just was like, I'm going to at least give it this amount of time. So now I can stop thinking about how far along I should be. And I really had this lesson from when I was doing a lot of Bikram yoga that I and a lot of people do this with fitness habits, like I really want to do this thing, and I'm gonna do it every single day or whatever it is. And then you fall off the waggon and all of that. And I was like, I'm just gonna show up. I'm gonna do it six times a week, because when it was three times, I was like, oh, it's Monday, well, maybe I'll go Monday because motivation Tuesday, well, I could go tomorrow. So I won't go today, I could go tomorrow, and kind of the whole week would go by like that. Because I'm gonna be six times a week, and I'm gonna do it for three months before I judge whether or not I like yoga, whether or not I want to continue with yoga, like, I'm just gonna do it for three months, so I can get out of this question of, Do I want to keep doing it? Is it working? For me, I was like, I'm just gonna give it three months. And then that's how I got three month in. I was like, so into it because I just been able to be committed without the drama about should I stay committed. And so I think that's something that's really helpful, particularly in the early years of business. And when we can be seeing these overnight successes around us who I mean, we all know this, I think when you really look into it, no one really isn't overnight success in the way that we think they are. But when you see other people who were like overtaking you or ahead of you, or they started after you, and now they're making more money or being more successful, or whatever, to just really get clear on like, how long are you willing to give it without seeing a result? And not in a way that lets you off the hook, but in a way that can get you out of this question of is it worth continuing or not? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Because we spend so much time and I continue to do that with me forever, I was gonna do that. And it's like, well, I'm willing to go for a year. Regardless of the outcome, it just like allows all of that to like not be a part of the equation anymore, because you've decided it's worth it regardless. Yeah, reevaluate in a year. Yeah, every year. Yeah, and we can do this often, too, with like different strategies. For example, with Instagram of like, well, I've already been posting consistently for two weeks, and it's not working. So maybe I should try a different, it's like, just let yourself try for a few consistent months. And I mean, I have so much to say and consistency and follow through and really thinking about that being falling through more often than not, or we aim for about 80% follow through, rather than trying to think that follow through. And consistency is like perfection, or you may as well just be off the waggon and doing nothing. But to really like give yourself a timeframe. And that way we can effectively evaluate and then you can actually find out what the result is and not have to make it mean something about you. Because when we don't do effective evaluation, we think the problem is we're not good enough when that's never the issue. So anyway, all that to say, for anyone who's trying anything to just decide ahead of time, how long you're going to try it to know it's going to be uncomfortable to know midway, you're going to want to change tact and to just be willing to stick with it for that predetermined period without judging whether or not you'll continue is so powerful because then it changes the question in our mind and we can actually be more focused on what is important rather than Should I keep doing this or should I change it or should I keep going or should I not? So that's for sure. That's been so so helpful for me as well. So thank you for sharing that. Okay, last thing. I know I told you, we'll do an hour so I'm just chatting away so Just yeah, we just started chatting one star for you. I'm just kidding. Okay, last question what is what are you lit up by really excited about recently. I'm in business or in general, whatever you want to share. So many things. I mean, I feeling very lit up about the business, which is so I feel like so proud of myself for this because without launches, so my programme, we're launching it four times this year, we've already done two. And the most recent one didn't have nearly as many signups as the first one. And because of how effective I was with my evaluation, I feel so empowered to create the result and like so able to have that bigger picture focus and not in any shame about anything, or I just feel very resilient, and problem solver, if that's a word, and creative and all those things. I'm really excited about that and our next launch that we're doing in July. And then personally, I'm getting married this month at our home in our backyard. We've just renovated our house last year. So really excited about that. And also my daughter Lydia, who's nearly one year old, just getting to be her mom, and yeah, all of that mom stuff I'm really lit up by so yeah. I'm the wedding coming up. So exciting. I have such a special magical wonderful day, Okay, anything else is on your heart to share that we didn't cover and either so much more. I feel like I'm like I haven't really more questions, to go listen to podcasts. There's a lot more there. But anything else is on your heart to share before I have you share where people can join PJSC and find you and all the things. Yeah, great question. What's on my heart to share is you matter and there's nothing wrong with you, I think that we can just get so caught up in thinking that maybe we don't matter. And maybe we're not okay, and something's gone terribly wrong, and it hasn't any matter. And that's what's on my heart to share. And if anyone wants to hear any more from me about all this perfectionism stuff, then my podcast, the perfectionism project, is the best place to go. And also, I'm on Instagram at the perfectionism project. Can I also send out daily, very short, believe it or not based on how I've chatted with two or three sentences, long emails every day, that are just a little motivational boost to help you get out of your own way and sharp and do the array of things that you need to do. So you can go to Sandler brown.com/power, if we can link that up in the shownotes. That'd be great. But that is where people can find more of me and really help them to get out of their own way. Amazing. And if someone wants to join PTSD, where can they do that? I guess we'll put the link for that in the show notes, too. But yeah, it's similar in July, okay, yeah, the next seven days in July. So depending when people listen to this, if they just go to Samlaurabrown.com/pjsc, they will see the page there that has all the details, you can either join the waitlist if we're not open or if we do happen to be open, you can sign up. But yeah, that's the best place to do this. Like to get out of your own way and to get your done your business. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for the work you're doing. You're doing really really, really beautiful, incredible work in the world. And I just want to honour you and say I see you and your matter. So thank you so much for being here and doing this interview and thank you everyone listening if you enjoyed this episode, please share it. tag us on Instagram. Send us a DM let us know what it brought up for you. I'm not soliciting anyone but you're welcome. Anyways, thank you so much, Sam. This is really really awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the Magnetically You podcast. If this episode served you I ask that you share it with someone who could make a difference for or share it on social media and tag me @magneticallyyou. Make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss any of the magic. And it would mean the world to me if you would leave a review on iTunes. Thank you so so much from the bottom of my heart for being here. And I will see you in the next episode.